E-Answer.Net

I believe that the women probably only wanted the rights, freedoms, and privileges that men had, not necessarily to be men.



However, I think some of the early feminists may have falsely assumed that women must become more like men in order to get these rights, freedoms, and privileges, which is probably why there were so many that argued that nearly all the differences between men and women came about through socialization. They may have argued this because they were scared to admit that maybe there are some innate differences in how men and women think...because they may have been afraid that an admission of differences constituted an admission that women were inferior, because that's how it always had been before (women were though of as different, but not though of as equals).



Men and women are equal, but different. Women do not need to BE men in order to be their equals or to be entitled to the same rights, freedoms, and privileges that they get. We were entitled to these things all along, we were just denied them for hundreds of years. So it's no surprise that some early feminist leaders may have tried to encourage women to be more like men.

Betty lied.



>id women want these freedoms because they wanted

>to be men? Or . . . because they also were human?"

Betty's feminism was typical of all feminism - its about women first and men should be enslaved.



Today's feminists are angry that it is the alpha males of the planet that make decisions. Feminists are always angry. Men will simply not give up power, and if they did, it certainly won't be to feminists.



Smart women use their female talents to get men to work for them.

Yes. They did and do want to be full human beings. It does not follow that

Women want to be full human beings.

Men are full human beings

Women want to be men.

That is poor logic.

Also, just because you disagree with something that someone does, it does not mean that everything they did or said is worthless.

Thomas Jefferson had slaves.

Abraham Lincoln thought it would be best to send the freed slaves back to Africa, at one time.

That doesn't mean that they weren't great men, who did some great things.

certainly, we want to be human and have full human rights. b/c men have had these rights, they were seen as the standard. however, in today's world, it feels like we have to act like men in order to be seen as equals.certainly, many on this forum have expressed their contempt when standards are lowered. it's just a shame that standards weren't made together - with both men & women in mind and then we wouldnt have this problem - of being disadvantaged for centuries and then held in contempt for trying to fix the problem.

Outside of roles and gender all of us are human. Women, no matter their position in life, has always had these freedoms.



These things are innate to every human being.. no one has to allow these things to be granted to them by anyone.



Women must think they are less than human if they think they have to fight for the right to decide for themselves in the eyes of their God the problems of right and wrong.



EDIT: Yes, so were men.



Today you could say women are given more liberties.

Back then if I was a woman, I'd be a feminist too. There is nothing wrong with equality. I used to believe in feminism. It wasn't till I went thru divorce court that I learned the hard way.



Can working class men* have the same freedom today? We gave you freedom, now please give us ours back.

What are you excluding from the statement? Frieden is....I'm just kidding. I think she is taking her anger out on the upper class and then all men. It is hard to tell because the entire statement isn't there.

I continue to agree with and admire all examples of non-misandric feminism, like this one. The distinction is very important for serious and fruitful dialog.

I think it is completely true. There were no other individuals that had full rights..only white men. I think the women of early feminism only wanted what men had (because they were human)...not to be them.

Women want these freedoms because we are human beings who want and deserve freedom. That's about all there is to say about it, imo.

women have the rights to do as they please but feminist have created a system where women get their positions not through talent alone, but through quotas and assistance programs.

She told it like it was - and ended with like it is.

It's a very interesting observation.



I think Ariel Levy hit the nail right on the head with her book. I agree with her that it seems like women have this idea that in order to be empowered, we must become like men. We have to have sex "like a man," climb the corporate ladder "like men," become more "ballsy", suppress emotion, "make it in a man's world." and above all else the point is that (WE THINK) in order to be accepted as equals we have to have this "if you can't beat 'em join 'em" attitude and do things like finding masculine expressions of sexuality appealing, like spending girls night out's at strip bars and taking pole dancing classes so that we can appear -with it- and -hip- (the underlying message being sent of course is that men’s ideas of fun = cool, women’s ideas of fun = snore).



I think it's sad that instead of defining what sexuality, empowerment, and others is for ourselves, we've simply adopted traditionally masculine attitudes about these things and called them our own while looking down on traditional femininity.



I think it's about time we start seriously looking at our own self-pointed sexism and stop feeling bad about ourselves when traditionally feminine traits pop up in us, or thinking that by adopting traditionally masculine attitudes we've somehow empowered ourselves. Secretly believing only "women with balls" belong in the workforce is not a step forward, it's a giant step back. It's just switching teams from being the receivers of sexism to the being aggressors of sexism.



That’s empowerment?



IMO it's all comes down to this inner fear we seem to hold: Being a woman isn't good enough. Women aren't as good as men. Men are strong, Women are weak. Etc etc etc.



The reason I'd call it a fear is that it is my belief that these inner ideas are what keep us from standing up and proudly claiming womanhood and most importantly DEFINING it! (Who the hell knows what "womanhood" is anyway?)



Problem is we're still trying to etch out our place in a "man's world" and no matter how many times we beat our heads against the wall we never will.



Equality will never exist as long as men AND women (whether they want to admit it or not) still secretly associate men (or masculinity) with power, success, strength and influence and women (or femininity) with weakness, powerlessness, vulnerability and inadequacy.



As long as we hold these ideals, this "man's world" will never become a "human world"

My avatar is the vision of every feminist.



Rebel F - If you actually deserved equal rights, your desires would have been justified hundreds of years ago. Female oppression is a form of honesty.